Today, we’re thrilled to welcome New York Times bestselling author Gayle Forman to the Mixed-Up Files! Best known for her wildly popular YA novels, including the If I Stay series, Gayle is also the author of Frankie & Bug, which Kirkus lauded for its “superb” storytelling. Her latest MG, Not Nothing, described by Wonder author R.J. Palacio as “A life-affirming gem,” is out from Aladdin/Simon Kids on August 27.
Chatting with Gayle
MR: Welcome to the Mixed-Up Files, Gayle! It’s an absolute pleasure to have you here. Before we dive in, you should know that I finished Not Nothing in one sitting. And that’s not nothing. I’m a slow reader!
GF: Wow, that is high praise for an author. I love the experience of an immersive, addictive read so when I learn that I delivered that to someone else, I’m very happy.
Not Nothing
MR: Not Nothing is about a 12-year-old boy, Alex, who must endure court-mandated community service at a senior citizens’ home—but the story is so much deeper, and more nuanced, than that. Can you tell MUF readers more about the novel?
GF: At its core, Not Nothing is a book about what happens when you are not invited/encouraged to be your better self—or worse, when you are enticed to be your worst self—and the incredible things that happen when you are invited to rise to the occasion of your life, whatever that means to you. It is also a story about the power of intergenerational friendships, finding commonality with people who seem outwardly so unlike you, and about how stories can unlock so much within us.
Josey: A Bold Narrative Choice
MR: The story is told from the perspective of Josey Kravitz, a 107-year-old Holocaust survivor. For a middle-grade novel, having an elderly narrator is a bold choice. What prompted this authorial decision? (It’s a brilliant one.)
GF: I’m so glad you think so! Josey has always been the heart and soul of this book, and at first I didn’t see how I could do a children’s book with him as narrator. Maybe that’s why at first I tried it as an adult novel, which didn’t work because this book was clearly meant to be what it now is: a middle-grade novel for all ages. So why the old man narrator for a kids’ book? I wanted Alex, and by extension, readers, to benefit from Josey’s experience and perspective. It took some figuring out to have Josey be the narrator and have the voice sound like Alex’s, but once I got there, the unconventional choice of narrators made such sense.
The Power of Words
MR: When we first meet Josey, he hasn’t spoken for five years yet he opens up to Alex about his painful past as a young man in Nazi-occupied Poland. Alex, in turn, is able to address his own troubles, which he’s had to tamp down in order to survive. What is it about the power of words—and the exchange of stories—that’s so transformative, and so healing?
GF: Why do we read novels about total strangers who are made-up people? Because something about the transfer of story from storyteller to listener/reader creates connection. It is why storytelling is so essential in our evolution. Alex cannot begin to grapple with his own reality, and is trapped in a cycle of resentment and anger until he hears Josey’s story. Then he can see his story through another story and the parallels allow him to think about what he has done. And what he can do. When people say that stories change lives, I think this is what they mean.
The Central Story
MR: One of the most important stories Josey shares with Alex is about Olka, a seamstress-turned-resistance-fighter from his hometown in Poland, who saved his life—literally and figuratively—by teaching him to sew. Can you tell us more about Josey and Olka’s story?
GF: Among the many things of today’s world that saddens me is our propensity for sorting people into fixed binaries: good or evil, kind or mean. We are so much more complicated than that and we are often all of these things at different points in our lives and we can change. At the start of the book, Olka is angry and frustrated, shrinking rather than growing, because of what she (rightfully) perceives as the unfair circumstances of her life. She does something that could have sent her tumbling down a rabbit hole of resentment but because of an almost offhanded decision of Josey to ask her to teach him to sew, her life goes in the opposite direction and she winds up saving Josey—and so many other people’s—lives.
Real-Life Inspiration
MR: In the Author’s Note, you share that the novel is based in part on the true-life story of Jerzy Bielecki and Cyla Cybulska, an interfaith couple—he was Catholic and she was Jewish—who met as prisoners at the Auschwitz concentration camp. What was it about this story that inspired you to reimagine it as material for a middle-grade novel?
GF: That part of the story—aside from the star-crossed love story—was a classic heist adventure. It does not play out with Josey and Olka the way it did with the real-life couple, but I definitely incorporated some of the true story. If I say any more, there will be SPOILERS.
It’s All in the Research
MR: Since a good portion of the novel takes place during World War II, in Nazi-occupied Poland, what sort of research did you do to ensure authenticity?
GF: This is the second book I have written that takes place in that time frame (the other one is an audio-only book that draws on my family history), and both books rely heavily on the incredible resources of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which has, among other things, thousands of survivor testimonies.
I also found a lot of the more granular small moments in memoirs written by both survivors from Krakow as well as allies, like the owner of the Eagle Pharmacy, a real-life pharmacy in the Krakow ghetto that features in the book. I also drew from my only family history—my grandparents fled Nazi Germany in 1938—and that of some of the elderly people I have become close with over the years at various assisted-living facilities. And finally, I was very lucky that the copy editor of the book was a daughter of a survivor and had incredible insights.
Presenting Difficult Topics for a Younger Audience
MR: An overarching theme in the novel is what prompts a “good person” to become “evil” and a not-so-good person to become good—or even heroic. You also explore the power of redemption. These are weighty topics for a middle-grade audience, yet you present them with a light, deft hand. What’s the secret to presenting difficult concepts for a younger audience without coming across as preachy or heavy-handed? It’s no mean feat.
GF: Thank you! I’m pretty allergic to anything preachy or performative so that helps me avoid it in my own writing. I would argue that teaching young people about morality and what it means to be aiming toward their better selves is not weighty. It’s exhilarating. To teach someone how to feel good while doing good to others is teaching them how to create, give and receive joy. I don’t think there’s a secret to it beyond trusting your readers, and having written for young people for my 25-plus year career, I know how much they are capable of. It is my job, through my books, to invite them to rise to the occasion of their lives.
Lucky 7
MR: Not Nothing took you seven years to write. What was the process like for you, from initial idea to finished novel?
GF: My new process seems to be to write a novel, think it’s terrible and irredeemable, leave it on my hard drive for a few years, come back to it, see how it’s meant to go. I initially conceived of this as an adult novel (the terrible version) and once I realized it was middle grade, I showed the terrible version to my editor, Kristin, along with an editorial letter of how I would fix it. Once I nailed how to have Josey tell Alex’s story, it clicked, and things moved relatively quickly from there.
Writing MG
MR: Not Nothing is not your first novel for middle-grade readers. Your debut MG, Frankie & Bug, was released in 2021. As a hugely successful YA author—including the If I Stay series, the Just One series, and several stand-alone novels—what prompted you to turn your writerly attention to MG?
GF: I know this sounds somewhat grandiose, but the stories demand it. With Frankie & Bug, the story I wanted to tell—about how it’s incumbent upon all of us to hurry toward justice—needed to be told in the near past and needed to be about younger people. With Not Nothing, I knew that Josey would be the narrator at the end of life (sorry, no spoiler, he’s 107!) and the grist of the story about his relationship with someone at the start of life.
Gayle’s Writing Routine
MR: What does your writing routine look like? Do you have a particular time of day when you prefer to write? Any habits or rituals?
GF: In my new version of slow novel writing, I actually spend much less time at the computer than I used to. (Would-be writers: this is not an excuse to slack; I think I had to spend all those hours to get to where I could spend less and create more, but it’s also an example of not pushing on a story when it’s not ready.) Maybe I write two or three hours a day when I’m drafting. After that, I run out of steam and the work suffers. When I’m revising, I can spend hours working and they fly by. This is when I get into the flow state. But other than coffee, I don’t really have rituals. I can work anywhere (I’m typing this from a hotel lobby between meetings), although I am probably a better writer in the morning.
MR: What are you working on now, Gayle?
GF: I have a young-adult novel called After Life coming out in January of 2025, so I’m putting the finishing touches on that while starting to think on my next MG and YA novels.
Lightning Round!
MR: And finally, no MUF interview is complete without a lightning round, so…
Preferred writing snack? Any leftovers that are in the fridge are like manna to me. No cooking, only re-heating!
Coffee or tea? Cappuccino. I make them myself. I’m a decent barista.
Plotter or Pantser? Cruiser
Superpower? Getting stuff done. I know that sounds boring for a super-power but it’s pretty awesome. You can be the best writer in the world but if you can’t finish a novel, it’s going to be a harder road if you want to do it professionally. And I get lots of stuff that isn’t writing done, too.
Best piece of writing advice? My old journalism professor had a sign on her door that reads: A real writer is one who writes. If you want to be a writer, write. And then revise.
Favorite place on earth? Brooklyn
If you were stranded on a desert island with only three things, what would they be?
- My dog
- A solar-powered e-reader with 1000 Libby library books on it that never expire. And enough blank pages to write.
- I was going to say my family but having been through Covid lockdown, I know this would make them miserable and crazy so I’m just bringing the dog who would be so happy to spend all his days with me.
MR: Thank you for chatting with us, Gayle—and congratulations on the forthcoming publication of Not Nothing!
GF: Thank you!!!!
About Gayle Forman
Award-winning author and journalist Gayle Forman has written several bestselling novels, including those in the Just One Day series, Where She Went, and the #1 New York Times bestseller If I Stay, which has been translated into more than forty languages and was adapted into a major motion picture. Her first middle grade novel, Frankie & Bug, was a New York Times Best Children’s Book of 2021. She lives in Brooklyn, New York, with her family.
Melissa Roske is a writer of middle-grade fiction. Before spending her days with imaginary people, she interviewed real ones as a journalist in Europe. In London she landed a job as an advice columnist for Just Seventeen magazine. Upon returning to her native New York, Melissa contributed to several books and magazines, selected jokes for Reader’s Digest (just the funny ones), and received certification as a life coach from NYU. In addition to her debut novel Kat Greene Comes Clean (Charlesbridge), Melissa’s short story “Grandma Merle’s Last Wish” appears in the Jewish middle-grade anthology, Coming of Age: 13 B’Nai Mitzvah Stories (Albert Whitman). Learn more about Melissa on her Website and follow her on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
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